The biggest surprises from the January 6 audiences so far

After interviewing more than 1,000 witnesses and amassing a trove of more than 140,000 documents, the House committee investigating the January 6, 2021 attack on Capitol Hill finally reveals its findings to the public.

So far, the panel has held three televised hearings: a carefully selected prime-time session that previews its overall conclusions and two extensive daytime sessions delving deeper into the research findings and their implications for American democracy.

We learned of Donald J. Trump’s determination to go ahead with his plan to overturn the 2020 election results despite being told at the time by his own advisers that it was illegal and there was no evidence of widespread fraud. We’ve also heard new details about Mike Pence’s harrowing day in hiding from rioters, and we’ve seen unreleased footage from the perspective of the cops fighting to keep the mob at bay, among other revelations.

To try to make sense of it all, I spoke with Times reporter Maggie Haberman, who has been covering January 6 and its aftermath and is ending his next book on Mr. Trump. Our conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity:

He has reported extensively on the events surrounding the Capitol riot, including a recent scoop on fears among Pence aides before January 6 about your safety. Did anything surprise you during these hearings or change your thinking about that day or the previous months?

The biggest surprise has been that John Eastman, a lawyer who advised Trump on his strategy to overturn the results of the 2020 election, put in an email that he was interested in a presidential pardon.

What was striking was that Eastman apparently asked for it after two White House advisers, Trump adviser Eric Herschmann and Pence adviser Greg Jacob, warned him that he was proposing things in violation of the law. So I think the hearings have adjusted the opening of what we might expect about the possible criminality involved here.

What’s your take on how a certain former president is reacting to the hearings so far?

My understanding of several people is that he hasn’t been happy to see them. He is particularly frustrated seeing videos of his family, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, being used against him.

Does Trump fear a possible federal indictment?

He has always feared impeachment, long before he became president, according to many people who know him. Whether he does it specifically here is an open question. Some of his aides insist that he doesn’t think these hearings will lead to anything affecting him.

From the outside, the hearings appear to be proceeding smoothly for the January 6 committee. What kind of internal turmoil, if any, has there been within the panel in the lead up to this moment? Are there major disagreements among members or their helpers about how to proceed?

Our colleague Luke Broadwater has done more reporting on this, but the committee hasn’t always been aligned on where the key areas of focus should be. One of the areas where we’ve seen them come into play has been what to do with Ginni Thomas, the wife of Judge Clarence Thomas.

There has also been frustration among some of the members and their staff over leaks, as often happens with committees or institutions.

What is your assessment of Rep. Liz Cheney’s role on the committee and what is your understanding of what drives her? She often appears to be one of the more aggressive members of the panel, despite being one of only two Republicans on it.

She is clearly one of the leaders and is a co-chair, so it shouldn’t be a surprise. But she has been important to them because it is very difficult to write her off as a political opponent.

In addition to her Republican bona fides, she is the daughter of Dick Cheney, far from being a plant liberal, she was actually a Trump supporter until she started trying to undermine the 2020 race in the run-up to Election Day. Trump’s allies have pointed to that as evidence of hypocrisy, but the reality is that a line was crossed for her.

But people can have more than one motivation, and I think she’s also very concerned about how Rep. Kevin McCarthy, who attacked her and removed her from her Republican leadership position in the House, has allowed Trump, beginning shortly after the riots .

How, as a matter of political calculation, would you assess McCarthy’s decision to reject the committee and allow Speaker Nancy Pelosi to dictate its form and scope? Do Republicans have any regrets?

Republicans primarily blame Pelosi for not allowing McCarthy to seat members she objected to. But privately, some Republicans are angry with him, believing he walked away too soon and could have had a hand in everything if he had traded names.

What about the electoral impact of these hearings? How much do they matter for the 2022 midterm elections or the 2024 presidential race?

Blake, I think people’s lives are so bleak economically right now, except for the super-rich, that anyone who is being influenced by these hearings may have already made up their minds.

Is any of this a good set of facts for Trump? Absolutely not. But in terms of the midterms, I think it’s too early to tell.

That’s different from the question of whether this is making it harder for Republicans to look away from Trump’s conduct, which the hearings are definitely doing.

It’s also very difficult to look at the body of testimonials thus far, and I don’t anticipate that you’ll get better for Trump, and watch someone pick it up and say, “That wasn’t so bad.” This is the former vice president’s chief of staff and lead attorney, Marc Short and Greg Jacob, making these arguments. It’s not Nancy Pelosi.

I could see it being used by people running against Trump in the 2024 primary. But we’re a long way from that at the moment.

What to read (and watch) tonight

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A unique lookout

On Politics regularly features the work of Times photographers. This is what Kenny Holston told us about capturing the image above:

As a photojournalist, I face many challenges that vary from assignment to assignment. A frequent difficulty when I work at the White House is getting a position for a narrative photo with a new view of a common event.

The White House press pool is often confined to small, separate areas at events involving the president or vice president. There is very little freedom to find creative points of view.

The image above is from the East Room as President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris entered for a bill signing ceremony. As the press group was packed into the usual cordoned off area, I decided to stand in front of my colleagues in a different area designated for the press.

For these types of ceremonies, this area serves as a small visual handicap. But I knew there might be an opportunity to create a kind of image that you don’t see often and that other photographers probably wouldn’t get. So I rolled the dice and was able to capture the image above.

Thank you for reading.

—Blake

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